(view full Prelims 1 recap here)
(view full Prelims 2 recap here)
(view full recap here)
1. Adair County H.S., KY
2. Beechwood H.S., KY
3. Saint James School, AL
Music: Adair County H.S., KY
Visual: Adair County H.S., KY
GE: Adair County H.S., KY
1. Marian Catholic H.S., IL
2. Kiski Area H.S., PA
3. Miamisburg H.S., OH
Music: Marian Catholic H.S., IL
Visual: Marian Catholic H.S., IL
GE: Marian Catholic H.S., IL
1. Harrison H.S., GA
2. Franklin H.S., TN
3. Dobyns-Bennett H.S., TN
Music: Harrison H.S., GA
Visual: Harrison H.S., GA
GE: Harrison H.S., GA
1. Hebron H.S., TX
2. Broken Arrow H.S., OK
3. Avon H.S., IN
Music: Hebron H.S., TX
Visual: Broken Arrow H.S., OK
GE: Hebron H.S., TX
(view full recap here)
1. (97.50) Broken Arrow H.S., OK
2. (97.00) Avon H.S., IN
3. (96.25) Hebron H.S., TX
4. (95.35) William Mason H.S., OH
5. (94.40) Carmel H.S., IN
6. (93.70) The Woodlands H.S., TX
7. (93.00) Round Rock H.S., TX
8. (90.90) Marian Catholic H.S., IL
9. (90.25) Harrison H.S., GA
10. (89.10) Blue Springs H.S., MO
11. (88.70) Keller H.S., TX
12. (88.25) Homestead H.S., IN
Music: Hebron H.S., TX
Visual: (tie) Avon H.S., IN
and Broken Arrow H.S., OK
GE: Broken Arrow H.S., OK
The 2015 Grand National Championships were held Nov. 11–14 at Lucas Oil Stadium. Broken Arrow was named Grand National Champion after placing second behind Hebron in the semifinals competition.
Below, we've preserved our full Grand Nationals Guide, but we'll take a look at the results here at the top.
Over the three rounds of competition during the weekend, the top three groups saw three different arrangements. In prelims, Broken Arrow was in first, Hebron in second, and Avon in third, but for semifinals, Hebron took the first place position from Broken Arrow with Avon remaining in third. By the time finals was completed, the results were switched up yet again with Broken Arrow back on top, Avon in second, and Hebron dropping to third.
Another notable placement swap was between Harrison and The Woodlands. In semis, Harrison was sixth and The Woodlands were ninth. In finals, The Woodlands grabbed the sixth-place spot and Harrison fell to ninth place.
This year also saw three groups make their Grand National Finals premiere: Blue Springs, Hebron, and Keller. Two of these groups, Hebron and Keller, also celebrated their first ever appearance at Grand Nats, while Blue Springs had competed in Grand Nats in prior years, most recently getting sixteenth place in 2013.
It's always interesting to look at the first few groups out of finals, to see who might be breaking into finals in the next year or two and who's on the fall after being in finals in the past.
Thirteenth place is Franklin, a group who made incredible strides of improvement since their eleventh-place finish at the Indy Super Regional. If this group keeps improving year over year, we might see them break into finals in 2016 or 2017.
Fourteenth place was Lawrence Township, the combo band of Lawrence Central and Lawrence North. Lawrence Central has a huge record of consistent finals appearances, and the new group Lawrence Township even made finals last year, their first year competing at Grand Nats. This year, however, they weren't able to continue that streak and were just two spots out of finals.
Fifteenth place was Dobyns-Bennett, a Tennessee school (like Frankin) that has set their eyes on making finals. This wasn't their year, slipping just one spot from their fourteenth place finish in 2014. Both Franklin and DB will continue striving to break into Grand Nats, and we expect to be seeing not just one, but two Tennessee bands consistently in finals in the not-too-distant future.
Grand Nationals Guide
Below you will find an extremely detailed guide to this weekend’s competition. We’ll begin with a breakdown of the prelims schedule block by block, pointing out which groups have a long history of great performances and identifying some of the up and coming groups you will definitely want to check out.
Next, we’ll give you a look into our semifinals predictions, complete with brief explanations of why we think each group will make it into the semifinals competition. After the semifinalists are announced on Friday night, check back here for an updated semifinals guide, similar to our prelims guide.
We’ll conclude with our predictions for the finals competition with a brief explanation of why we think each group will be in finals.
The first day of preliminary competition features groups from all across the country, from New York all the way to Hawaii. We’ll see several consistent national finalists and even a couple of former national champions.
Block 1 (8:45 a.m. - 11:45 a.m.)
The competition opens with a diverse group of bands. Rockford stands out as a potential semifinalist, and another group to keep an eye on is Lancaster, who is travelling from New York to compete.
Block 2 (12:30 p.m. - 3:30 p.m.)
Toward the end of this block we get to see a group that has travelled over 4,000 miles to perform for us. That group is the Mililani Band from Mililani, Hawaii. It is amazing to see such a diverse groups of bands attending Grand Nats. In terms of scores, however, Homestead should easily finish in the highest spot for this block. We also expect to see two class representatives from this group: Fred J. Page from Tennessee and St. James School from Alabama.
Block 3 (4:00 p.m. - 8:00 p.m.)
Make sure to check out William Mason. This group has been on an upward trajectory for many years, finishing in fifth place last season at Grand Nats, their highest placement to date. If they want to continue this upward trend, they’ll need to break into a new level of competition that’s currently inhabited by a bunch of former national champions. Dobyns-Bennett is another great group in this block, and will be on the bubble for finals. There are also many other groups that have a good chance of making semifinals: Green Hope, DeSoto Central, Dublin Coffman, Cary Senior, and Homestead (CA).
Block 4 (7:45 p.m. - 10:45 p.m.)
If you’re wanting to see a replay of last weekend’s Indiana State Finals, just stop by for this block. With half of the ISSMA Class A state finalists performing within two hours of each other, you’ll get the chance to see the incredibly high level of competition that can be found within an hour drive of Lucas Oil Stadium. In addition, Centerville, Adair County, Paragould, and Jenison round out a very entertaining block to end Thursday’s preliminary competition.
Friday Prelims features many incredible bands from across the country, including all of the Texas bands competing at this year’s Grand National Championships.
Block 1 (7:15 a.m. - 10:15 a.m.)
This is quite the way to start the day: Eden Prairie, The Woodlands, Blue Springs, Harrison, Kiski Area, Keller, Hebron, and Bentonville. If there is one block you do not want to miss, it might be this one.
Block 2 (10:45 a.m. - 1:45 p.m.)
Lake Central stands out as the best band in this block, and will definitely be looking to make finals after being so close for many years. Keller Central is another good band making the trip from Texas, and Blackhawk is making the trip from Pennsylvania. Keep an eye on Bourbon County as an under-the-radar semifinalist candidate.
Block 3 (2:30 p.m. - 5:30 p.m.)
Invasion from Ohio? Eight of the twelve bands in this block are from Ohio, including Miamisburg, who may be a dark horse semifinalist. The other four are from Missouri, Illinois, Kentucky, and the nearby state of Alaska. Hold up, Alaska? Colony High School, the only marching band in the state of Alaska, is making the almost 4,000 mile trip to Indianapolis. Again, the diversity of participation at Grand Nats this year is incredible. You will not want to miss their performance.
Block 4 (6:15 p.m. - 9:00 p.m.)
This block starts with one of the favorites to win Grand Nationals this year, Broken Arrow, and ends with a group that has been in Grand Nationals for much, much longer than all of its students have been alive, Marian Catholic. In between those two, you’ll witness some incredible groups that will be fighting for semifinals and even finals spots. You’ll definitely want to check out Archbishop Alter and Beechwood, two class A groups that will be looking to claim the National Class Champion title. We would list all the groups in this block you won’t want to miss, but that happens to be all the groups in this block. Besides, the semifinalists announcement happens right after this block, so why leave early?
As laid out in the BOA Adjudication Handbook, semifinalists are selected as follows. First, the top 11 scoring bands are selected from each day, regardless of class. Then, the next 8 highest scoring bands are selected, regardless of day or class. Finally, as many additional semifinalist spots as necessary are created to ensure every group that placed in the top two in their class on their day is invited to perform in the semifinals competition.
Once those selections are made, the top 22 bands, regardless of performance day, are given the middle 22 performance slots. The next eight highest scoring bands are given four spots before and four spots after the top 22. Those bands moving through based on class representation are given the earliest spots.
Top 22 from prelims, regardless of day
Franklin H.S., TN (AAA)
Franklin’s highest placement at Grand Nationals came in 2013 when the group placed 15th. Last year the group fell a couple places, finishing in 21st. Despite a surprisingly low placement at this year’s Indianapolis Super Regional, we expect Franklin to be in semifinals and to push closer to the cut-off line for finals The show has progressed greatly since Indianapolis and it is a must-watch for those that haven’t seen “But Now I See”.
This group has placed 12th at the Indy Super Regional and 9th in ISSMA finals so far in 2015. That being said, their hypnotic show is one to check out. With a downward trend in placement, this could be the year Ben Davis reverses the trend with a high placement in semifinals.
Lawrence Township H.S., IN (AAAA)
In 2013, Lawrence Central placed 8th in finals. Last year, the newly merged “Marching Pride of Lawrence Township” managed to snag the last spot in finals. So far, Lawrence Township has finished ninth at the Indy Super Regional behind frequent finals bubble bands such as Lake Central. Their program is packed with weather-related general effect, complete with about a dozen wind sock machines. It is a truly entertaining and unique show but, with the huge level of competition this year, it can’t guarantee a finals performance in 2015.
Harrison H.S., GA (AAA)
Returning to Grand Nationals in 2015, Harrison is expected to secure a finals spot. So far in 2015, Harrison placed second behind Fort Mill at the Powder Springs Regional but surpassed them in Atlanta a few weeks later as their show progressed. As a group known to peak late in the season, you can expect nothing but their best at Grand Nats in 2015.
Homestead H.S., CA (AAAA)
As one of the top band programs in both California and the West Coast in general, Homestead (CA) should get a second chance to play their show in Indianapolis on Saturday. If they can make finals on Saturday night, they’ll join Ayala High School as the second California program to make Grand National Finals in the last 10 years.
Dobyns-Bennett H.S., TN (AAA)
Over the last year, Dobyns-Bennett has soared to the top of groups to look for on the inner finals bubble. With an unexpected snag of second place in class AAA in Grand National semifinals last year, we can expect to see them place again in 2015. They won the Winston-Salem Regional and finished 4th at the Atlanta Super Regional, just two points behind a BOA finalist. Their show, “What Will Your Verse Be?” is an emotional program that is sure to be a fan favorite.
Homestead H.S., IN (AAAA)
The other Homestead has received a warm welcome back from their BOA absence. After placing securely in finals in 2014, Homestead is expected to make an appearance again in 2015. They present a creative show complimented by their powerful hornline.
Blue Springs H.S., MO (AAAA)
The last time Blue Springs competed at Grand Nats in 2013, they placed 16th, just a few places out of finals. This year, they have a show design that rivals many of the elite powerhouses and a mid-season record any group would be proud of including a third place finish at St. Louis and a fourth place finish at Indianapolis.
Keller H.S., TX (AAAA)
Keller has been extremely active on the BOA scene this fall. They have participated at the Conroe and Arlington Regionals where they finished sixth and seventh, respectively. They also made finals at the BOA San Antonio Super Regional where they placed thirteenth overall. You can expect to see this group securely in semifinals and will be doing their best to make it into the finals competition.
The Woodlands H.S., TX (AAAA)
This is the first time The Woodlands has competed outside their home state of Texas since they won Grand Nats in 2013. The band also won the San Antonio Super Regional that year. While the group placed seventh at this year’s San Antonio Super Regional, we still expect them to be among the top groups at Grand Nats.
“You Are Here”, the 2015 program presented by Center Grove, is certainly one to watch. While it is safe to say this group will not make it’s way back into finals in 2015, their show is one that makes you think and emotionally connect to the performance. Judging from the Indy Super Regional, Center Grove is certainly a fan favorite.
Keller Central H.S., TX (AAAA, Friday)
Keller Central placed 10th at the Arlington Regional and 24th at the San Antonio Super Regional in 2015. With a notable record, you can look for them in semifinals performance, but not in finals performance. Their show is fun to watch and we look forward to seeing how both Keller and Keller Central represent their city in Indianapolis.
Broken Arrow H.S., OK (AAAA)
Broken Arrow has consistently been one of the top band programs for over ten years. Their past two Grand Nats appearances earned second place finishes, placing a combined 0.3 points behind first. They’ve also won the visual caption in Finals in their last two trips and captured GE in 2012’s Finals. Can they bring the Eagle back to Oklahoma this year? With the students, staff, and show on hand this season, it is very, very possible.
Centerville H.S., OH (AAAA)
Centerville attended the Dayton, OH Regional where they placed fourth overall and third in class AAAA. They barely managed to snag a spot in finals at the Atlanta Super Regional, finishing in 12th place. This group has been floating in the outer bubble the past few years as they were 15th at Grand Nationals in 2012, 22nd in 2013 and 19th in 2014. With heavy competition at Grand Nationals in 2015, we expect to see them remain in the bottom half of semifinals.
William Mason H.S., OH (AAAA)
William Mason is a group that has captured audience attention since its first finals performance in 2011. Since then, they have improved their placement each subsequent year, finishing in fifth place last year. With a stacked list of finalist- and champion-worthy bands, it is uncertain whether or not they will be able to continue this trend. As always, they will be a performance to look forward to.
Lake Central H.S., IN (AAAA)
As a group on the cusp of Grand National finals for several years, you can expect to watch a great up-and-coming group in action. Their Medusa-inspired show reveals Lake Central’s solid skill set but with such a top-heavy list of competitors, it is safe to say, this might not be their year to make it into finals. We do sympathize with them as the past three years they have been ranked in finals based on prelims scores before being dropping to an out-of-finals placement in the semifinals competition.
Avon H.S., IN (AAAA)
The Marching Black and Gold has an incredibly fitting show this year: Black Gold. Earlier this year, Avon was named champion of the Indianapolis Super Regional and the Dayton Regional in addition to the ISSMA State Championships, staying ahead of Carmel by a fair margin all season. Avon is definitely in contention for the eagle in 2015 but with so many high-achieving bands participating, it won’t come easily. If they don’t win, they are expected to be at least in the top three.
Carmel H.S., IN (AAAA)
While their 2015 program is original, it was pretty lack-luster at the Indy Super when compared to Avon. This may be another year of declining finalist placement for Carmel, or it could be the year they really pick it up this week leading to Grand Nats. With a top-heavy list of finals competitors, Carmel may have a tough time remaining in the top four. Their show is one to appreciate and enjoy but as far as competition, this could be a declining year for them.
Round Rock H.S., TX (AAAA)
Round Rock really burst into the national spotlight after their 2013 season. The band placed 4th at Grand Nationals that year, and has not looked back since. After what can only be considered a restructuring year in 2014, Round Rock looks to make another strong statement at this year’s national showcase.
Cary Senior H.S., NC (AAAA)
Earlier this season, Cary Senior placed ninth in finals at the Winston-Salem Regional. This group has also been selected to march in the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade in 2016. One of North Carolina’s top groups looks poised to make another visit to semifinals this season.
Marian Catholic H.S., IL (AA)
Impressive as always, 2015 seems to be a year of solid improvement for Marian Catholic. They won music over Avon and Carmel at the Indy Super Regional, placing third overall. We think their use of “Marianette” dolls will place them safely in finals and secure the class AA title.
Hebron H.S., TX (AAAA)
Hebron is one of the top programs in Texas and will be a finalist at Grand Nationals in their first ever visit. The band placed fourth at the San Antonio Super Regional this year. We expect this group to make a strong push for the Eagle.
Bentonville H.S., AR (AAAA,)
Bentonville placed sixth at this year’s St. Louis Super Regional. Finishing directly behind some other strong groups at St. Louis, we think they have a good chance of being in the semifinalist mix. The group’s staff and design is world class and it will show on Saturday. We expect to see Bentonville become a legitimate contender for finals in future years.
Next 8 from prelims, regardless of day
Kiski Area H.S., PA (Friday)
Kiski is the 2015 champion of the Monroeville Regional. They swept captions both in prelims and overall in finals competition. Kiski, the underdog, beat out previous regional champion, Norwin. The group has real historical value as one of the top national programs in Bands of America’s early days. The hype surrounding the Pennsylvania program has increased over the last few weeks; can they sneak into finals on Saturday night?
Larry A Ryle H.S., KY (Thursday)
Jenison competed at the Bowling Green Regional earlier this season where they finished sixth overall and second in class AA. The group is a frequent semifinalist at Grand Nats, and we expect that’s where they’ll be again this season.
Adair has been a strong competitor in class A for several years. There’s no doubt they will be at the top of their class again in 2015. If they can win class A, they will earn an exhibition performance during the Saturday night finals competition.
Milford H.S., OH (Thursday)
Goshen H.S., IN (Friday)
Goshen swept captions at the Bowling Green Regional earlier this season, placing third overall. Goshen was only 0.25 points behind a former Grand National finalist, Plymouth-Canton. We look forward to seeing how Goshen places among the other Indiana programs and programs from across the country.
Green Hope H.S., NC (Thursday)
Beechwood H.S., KY (A, Friday)
Beechwood took the Class A Championship in 2011 with one of the more entertaining shows we’ve seen in the last five years. Expect a strong showing from this group in 2015.
Bellbrook H.S., OH (A, Friday)
Father Ryan H.S., TN (AA, Thursday)
Saint James School, AL (A, Thursday)
Saint James competed at the Jacksonville regional where they swept captions in class A. They also attended the Atlanta Super Regional where they finished 29th overall and won class A. They have earned themselves two exhibition performances so far in 2015. It is uncertain whether or not they will be able to do the same at Grand Nats.
Not in Semifinals
Archbishop Alter H.S., OH (A, Friday)
Archbishop Alter is a consistent class rep at Grand Nationals. These kids know what it takes to play a second time in Indianapolis, and we expect them to do that once again this season.
Bourbon County H.S., KY
So far in 2015, Bourbon Co. has competed at the Dayton Regional, finishing second in class AA and sixth overall. They placed higher than a band that made finals at the Indy Super Regional creating strong semifinals expectations for Grand Nats.
DeSoto Central H.S., MS (AAA, Thursday)
So far, DeSoto Central participated in the Powder Springs Regional. Due to weather, finals was rained out so their 7th place finish was calculated from their preliminary run. Known for very entertaining shows, one of Mississippi’s top programs has a chance to be their lone representative in semifinals from the state.
Eden Prairie H.S., MN
This group competed at the St. Louis Super Regional, placing fifth in finals after a seventh place finish in prelims. They beat several groups were predicting as semifinalists and have a really good chance of being named as a semifinalist themselves. They are the only band competing at Grand Nationals from Minnesota this year.
Fred J. Page H.S., TN (AA, Thursday)
Earlier this season, Page competed at the Jacksonville Regional, finishing 9th overall. This program has come a long way over the last 7-8 years and looks to continue their rise with a spot in semifinals.
Green Hope H.S., NC
This season, Green Hope placed third in class AAAA at the Winston-Salem regional and finished seventh overall beating both Boiling Springs and Cary Senior. The NC bands will represent their state well in semis.
This year, we picked all 12 finalists bands correctly. It's unlikely that we picked all 12 placements as well, but we will find out for sure when the finals awards ceremony occurs tonight at around 11:30 eastern time. Follow us on twitter, for the latest updates on scores and placements.
12. Keller H.S., TX
We believe that Keller will be able to sneak into the last spot in finals by a relatively comfortable margin. We’re reminded of Cedar Ridge a couple years ago when considering their situation, and expect them to finish 12th, although it’s possible they could slip up a tad higher. This will be another good measurement of how Texas bands compare to the rest of the country.
11. Homestead H.S., IN
The transition to BOA hasn’t been as earth-shattering as many people, including us, believed it would be. However, this is still not a band to take lightly. Remember, Homestead has been going toe-to-toe with Avon and Carmel for many years. We can’t see them falling below 11th, and could easily see them going several places higher.
10. Harrison H.S., GA
Harrison is a high level program based out of Cobb County, GA. They consistently produce shows with excellent design that connect well with both audiences and judges and you can always count on Harrison’s distinct sound to be moving and effective. In addition, their sound is phenomenal year after year. Harrison is a solid finalist, and could rise a few spots from our 10th place prediction. We’re excited to hear how they sound in their big moments on the field this weekend.
9. Blue Springs H.S., MO
We’ve said it before and we’ll say it again: the sky's the limit for Blue Springs. Over the next couple of years, we expect to see phenomenal growth from Blue Springs, pushing them into the highest level of bands in the country. We absolutely loved their show at the St. Louis Super Regional and at the Indianapolis Super Regional. For now though, ninth seems like the perfect place.
8. Marian Catholic H.S., IL
Marian Catholic is one of the most impressive music programs in the nation. Director Greg Bimm is one of the best in the business and has been leading this program since 1977 about as long as BOA has been in existence. Under his leadership, the band has won seven Grand National Championships. While they haven’t placed as high the past few years, don’t count them out of the Top 6. Marian Catholic is known for cleaning and perfecting their shows in the last two weeks of the season, and this year will be no exception.
7. Round Rock H.S., TX
The dragon band is back in Indy! After a stunningly good finish two years ago, Round Rock is back for more. Will they get it? We don’t see them going any higher than fifth, but in a top-heavy, loaded year like this, anything in finals is extremely impressive. We think they’ll be able to prove they are a powerhouse moving into the future.
6. William Mason H.S., OH
William Mason hasn’t been to a BOA event since early October, when they were crowned champions at the Bowling Green Regional. There has been a lot of hype surrounding their extremely West Side Story influenced show this year, and based on the track record of consistent placement improvement at Grand Nationals (especially since their first finals appearance in 2011), it is not out of the question that this could be the year they break into the top three. William Mason is this year’s “big unknown” when it comes to the finalist locks, and we can’t wait to see what all the excitement is about.
5. Carmel H.S., IN
Carmel is consistently one of the highest achieving groups individually in the nation, but it has to be said that Carmel doesn’t seem quite as impressive as they did just three years ago. “What a Tangled Web We Weave” is a favorite show for some of our writers, and we really hope that we get something more like that and less like a 5th place band from them once again. It’s very possible, and Carmel might be the least surprising band to surprise people on Saturday. Look for high music performance individual (MPI) and visual performance individual (VPI) scores all weekend.
4. The Woodlands H.S., TX
The last time The Woodlands attended Grand Nationals, they took the eagle back to Texas. While the band hasn’t achieved the same level of success as that 2013 season so far, we still expect them to give three strong performances in Lucas Oil Stadium. Top five is certainly attainable for this fantastic program.
3. Broken Arrow H.S., OK
At this point, we should just start expecting Broken Arrow to take the Visual Caption in finals. They’ve done it in their last two Grand Nationals appearances and seem positioned to take it once again. The caption we don’t expect them to take is music. They’ve never been able to grab this caption in any round of Grand National competition and we don’t expect that trend to change this year. As a staff, we’re very divided on where we think Broken Arrow will place and think they have a realistic chance of taking home the eagle. But regardless of placement, we can expect Broken Arrow to have an extremely well-developed, demanding, and entertaining show because that’s just their standard of excellence.
2. Hebron H.S., TX
Hebron has a legitimate chance to win the Eagle this year. Finishing among the top five bands at the San Antonio Super Regional is no easy task. This year’s program, “360” has an incredible visual design accompanied by impressively technical music. The effect created is incredibly entertaining and powerful, and while it wasn’t completely polished at San Antonio, we can’t wait to see how much they’ve cleaned up these past two weeks. Hebron is certainly coming in as the favorite to win the music caption. There is a lot of discussion that they could take home the music caption, if not the eagle.
1. Avon H.S., IN
Avon is looking to reclaim the Eagle for the first time since their 2008-2010 three-peat, and we think that this is the year they could keep the eagle in Indiana. Since Carmel’s hometown championship in 2012, the Eagle has traveled far distances to Tarpon Springs, FL and The Woodlands, TX, but Avon’s show this season is one of the best they’ve put out there this decade. A championship at Grand Nationals would give them victories in three different Bands of America events this season: the Dayton Regional, the Indianapolis Super Regional, and Grand Nationals. If Avon pulled it off and hit through the cycle with all three of those victories, it would be quite the feat. We have no doubt in our minds that it’s a distinct possibility, but this year’s scores should be as close as ever.
Thanks for reading through our massive 2015 Guide to the Grand National Championships. While we don’t claim to know how the results will turn out (your guess is as good as ours) we hope we’ve been able to add a little context to your enjoyment of these 95 incredible bands from all across the country. This has been one of the most exciting seasons of marching band and we hope you’ve enjoyed it as much as we have. We’ll continue to update this article through the weekend as results are announced from each round of competition. Make sure to check back here and follow us on Twitter to stay up to date with the latest information as we hear it.